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Re: Mr. T on Total Depravity {re-post}

Benjer McVeigh — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:26:08 -0000

Love it! You actually seemed to hit pretty close to his real preaching: http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Re: Trent Makes Some Orange Juice

Guest — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:31:54 -0000

Hi Jason,

I seem to have gotten the threads here all out of order with the order of my reply. I am so sorry about that! I am still interested to know if I understand your position (see above).

I think it is easy to misunderstand Trent if you don't know how Catholics define their words. Here are a few points.

1. Catholics do not consider "agape" to be equivalent to "works of the law". Agape, or love for God, is a disposition of the heart, not a "doing". It is a spiritual gift of God's grace, in the same sense that faith (belief in God) is a gift of his grace. Paul says "And the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus."

If I love God, I will keep His commandments, but loving God does not mean that I have kept his commandments.

2. Agape (love for God) is a special virtue because it is the source of the other fruits of the spirit (patience, kindness, temperance, chastity, etc.). Paul says this when he says "Love is patient, love is kind, ...". It also makes sense. The reason we grow in these other virtues is because we believe God has given us the gifts of believing in him, loving him, and the hope for salvation.

3. Catholics feel the need to distinguish between "dead" faith, and living faith, just as James and Paul warn against dead faith. Trent felt the need to reiterate this distinction, because there were groups of Protestants who were saying that it was their "confidence alone" in Christ's atoning sacrifice that gave them salvation. Or the fact that they simply believed themselves justified made them justified. On the contrary, said Trent. True faith is a grace of God, and anyone who has living faith also has love for God and will try to keep His commandments (not that they will succeed or have always kept His commandments in the past). Without love for God, there is no new life in the Spirit, and faith is dead. Trent said that simply having confidence in salvation, without love for God, is not justifying.

Now, it is possible and quite likely that many of these Christians who believed in God or believed they were justified also loved God. Trent's anathema would have applied to anyone at the time who was teaching that simply having confidence in salvation was sufficient for justification.

4. Because living faith is necessary for justification, and living faith implies the existence of agape, Catholics believe agape is necessary for justification, and for salvation.

Like I said earlier, believing that agape is part of living faith neatly squares away all the verses that speak of love being required for salvation, and the verses that promise salvation for those who love Him.

Let me explain: if one does not love God, one is accursed (1 Cor 16:22), and you cannot be justified if you are accursed. One cannot be justified unless also sins are forgiven, and if I do not love God, then my sins are not forgiven. (Luke 7:47). Those who love God are promised to be rich in faith and "heirs of the kingdom" - you cannot be a heir of the kingdom unless you are justified. One cannot be justified if one is "nothing" (1 Cor 13:2). To receive the crown of righteousness (2 Tim 4:8), which is promised to all who love him, one has to be justified. I take this as meaning that the crown of righteousness is not given to those who don't love Him. Without love, one will perish in wickedness, and no one who perishes in wickedness can be justified. (2 Thess 2:10)

In Romans 8:30, it talks about the elect who are predestined to be justified and glorified. Who are the elect? He says this right before in 8:28. "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." The elect are those who love God.

5. The source of agape is in Christ's sacrifice on the cross. His act was the ultimate gift of love, dying for his friends. It is because of that loving sacrifice that our sins are atoned for and forgiven. The forgiveness of sins makes possible a loving relationship with God, or friendship with God. We receive the gift of love from the source of love, God himself.

6. The gift of agape we receive, because of its source in Christ's sacrifice, fulfills all the requirements of the law. (Romans 13:8).

Re: Trent Makes Some Orange Juice

Guest — Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:29:47 -0000

Sorry, I meant to say is my intent is _NOT_ to characterize your beliefs or create straw men. Hopefully you got that!

Re: Trent Makes Some Orange Juice

Guest — Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:29:12 -0000

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the reply. I think I understand now why you think the verses I listed have no bearing on justification.

My intent here is to characterize your beliefs or create straw men. It's hard to convey these things over text. Please forgive me if I have come across this way.

Rather, I am trying explain the Catholic position and I hope to show you how the Catholic formulation / interpretation of scriptures is closer than you may realize to your own interpretation. You say "obviously there are some differences", and maybe so, but my purpose is more to bridge understanding, because I interpret Trent's declarations in a different way from what I read in your post.

I would like to get back to your statement that agape is equivalent to works of the law. But I would first like to make sure I understand your position. Is it this?

1. We are not justified by "dead faith". When James uses the words "dead faith", he means something like "mere belief", which is not "real" faith.

2. We are not justified by "mere belief", ie intellectual assent to a particular set of doctrinal statements.

3. We are justified by "living faith", and "living faith" is required for justification.

4. In Ephesians 2:8, when Paul uses the word "faith", he means "living faith".

5. Agape is "found in" living faith. (You used the words "found in" above, but I am not sure this is what you mean.)

6. Even though agape is "found in" living faith, agape is not actually required for justification, because we are justified apart from agape.

Please let me know if I understand you. I think I must be misunderstanding something, but I'm not sure what.

Jon

Re: Trent Makes Some Orange Juice

Jason Anspach — Sat, 09 Jul 2011 00:00:16 -0000

We're agreed that no one is predestined to go to Hell. To characterize that as the reformed position is to argue against a straw man to be certain.

All the verses you gave say nothing of justification, they only speak to the characterization of faith. That the faith given as a gift by God is marked by love (not to mention joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control) is not to prove that we are justified by works.

I don't need to read ALONE into any verse because Paul does it for me when he says APART from works. You say that agape is something different, but agape is the Greek word for love and the great commandments are marked by agape - love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. This is precisely the agape found in faith. It is precisely the proper keeping of the law and as such it is explicitly stated to not justify. We are justified by a faith that has with it love. We are not justified by the love. This is not a problem for the reformed position because a justifying faith will always have love.

Love is always used as an illustration to show true faith. That's why I say you read into verses (just as you beg the question regarding Abraham in spite of Paul's clear statement of how he was justified). Anytime faith without love is put forward as adequate, it should be rebuked. That doesn't mean works should be elevated in spite of clear Scripture to the contrary. You seem to believe that the reformed teaching is that dead faith saves -- it isn't, nor has it ever been. I apologize if I read too much into your assessment of the reformed view based on your earlier comment about beings predestined to hell, but it does make me think that you've been arguing against a position of your own making rather than what the reformed position actually is.

I'm sorry if I come across as pounding the table, but my friend, I feel you are doing the very same. Only you continue to beg the question in order to do so.

Re: Trent Makes Some Orange Juice

Guest — Fri, 08 Jul 2011 21:43:28 -0000

Hi Jason,

Regarding predestination being opposed to free will, that is false dichotomy, and a separate topic... we can get into that a little later if there is the time. In any case, we cannot believe God predestines anyone to Hell.

****

Why do you say I am viewing scripture through just one verse? I listed about 10 verses that state very clearly the importance of agape for salvation. You're just table pounding when you restate that I am looking only at James.

None of the verses you listed even mention agape. You mentioned Abraham, but you also know he was called a "friend of God". This implies he had not only belief in God, but also agape. You cannot have friendship with God without love.

All the verses you listed are talking about works of the law. None of them say that "faith ALONE" saves you. You are equating "works of the law" with agape, and Paul never equates those two concepts.

See if you can find one verse that says faith WITHOUT agape is justifying.

Jon

Re: Trent Makes Some Orange Juice

Jason Anspach — Fri, 08 Jul 2011 13:44:42 -0000

Hi again Jon,

I saw your comments but have been short of time to give a thorough reply. You say that there is nothing in Scripture stating that faith without agape is justifying, but this is untrue.

"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Romans 3:28

"Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.'" Galatians 3:11

"yet we know that a person is not justified1 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Galatians 2:16

"just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.'" Romans 4:6-8

"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God." Romans 4:2

So your statement that Scripture doesn't say faith apart from works of the law justifies is incorrect. You're viewing the whole of Scripture through one passage in James which can be easily reconciled by examining the verses you've already listed (true faith is always accompanied by good works, but these works do not justify). This is the same principle given in Matthew 12:33-37 where Christ says that we'll be known by our fruit. As I've said before, this is a poor hermeneutic in that it sacrifices many clarifying texts for the sake of a rigid interpretation of one proof text.

As for your statement that faith is a gift from God that we are free to reject, obviously there is disagreement. However, I believe if you hold that to be true, that we are free to accept the gift or reject it (contrary to Romans 8:30) I think you do more damage than good to your position as it absolutely leaves room for boasting contrary to Scripture clarifications otherwise.

Thanks for the replies, btw!

Re: Trent Makes Some Orange Juice

Guest — Fri, 08 Jul 2011 00:57:54 -0000

Jason, one more thing ... regarding the scriptural basis of whether faith PLUS AGAPE is required for salvation -

The point is that there is nothing in scripture stating that faith (belief) WITHOUT agape is justifying. On the contrary, scripture states repeatedly the significance of agape for salvation, and James says that we are not justified by faith (mere belief) alone. It has always been the Catholic belief that sanctifying grace includes faith, hope, and agape.

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. 1 John 5:3

Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? James 2:5

For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much Luke 7:47

and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing [οὐθέν]. 1 Cor 13:2

If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. 1 Cor 16:22

But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 1 Thess 5:8

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 1 Tim 1:5

and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 1:4

Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 2 Tim 1:13

in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved [ἠγαπηκόσι] His appearing. 2 Tim 4:8

and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love [ἀγάπην] of the truth so as to be saved. 2 Thess 2:10

Re: Trent Makes Some Orange Juice

Guest — Fri, 08 Jul 2011 00:55:00 -0000

Jason, one more thing ... regarding the scriptural basis of whether faith PLUS AGAPE is required for salvation - this website presents the argument as well as any.

http://www.calledtocommunio...

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. (John 14:23)

Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? (James 2:5)

For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much (Luke 7:47)

and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing [οὐθέν]. (1 Cor 13:2)

If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed (1 Cor 16:22)

But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. (1 Thess 5:8)

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (1 Tim 1:5)

and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. (1 Tim 1:14)

Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (2 Tim 1:13)

and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love [ἀγάπην] of the truth so as to be saved. (2 Thess 2:10)

Re: Trent Makes Some Orange Juice

Guest — Fri, 08 Jul 2011 00:53:30 -0000